Riva Pomerantz: Take Two, the messy middle, and the discomfort of multidimensionality

Released just before Yom Tov, Take Two is a provocative family drama, tapping into the emotion you expect from Riva Pomerantz and breaking through the intricate webs of our relationships. Layers of dysfunction are torn back to reveal a nuanced exploration of parents, children, victimhood, and change.

Riva Pomerantz is back for a second conversation [here’s the first one], where we dive into the inner workings of Take Two. Riva writes fiction for Ami Magazine, runs a writing community for women and girls, and founded Skillnosh, an online marketplace for frum courses. In addition to Take Two, Riva has written fourteen (!) other books, including her most recent novels, See You and Enough.

Can you start off by introducing readers to Take Two?

Take Two is a complex book, based on a true story, that explores parent-child relationships in the context of husband and wife relationships, the interplay and boundaries between a child and parent, and what happens when that child gets married. How do they maintain simultaneously being a child and being a spouse? This is a juggling act even in healthy situations, but especially if there's an unhealthy dependency, there can be a lot of dysfunction, pain, confusion, and misunderstanding.

I always say that the hardest choices are not between good and bad, but rather between good and good. That’s what this book explores. I'm rereading it now, and I'm like, “Wow, these poor people! On the one hand, I’m like, ‘Aryeh, you're such a loser! You're married to this girl and are totally abandoning her!’ And on the other hand, if he doesn't jump in and save the day, in his mind and maybe even in reality, his whole nuclear family is going to sink. So the story is full of this tension,this really strong push and pull. It’s complicated!

In the afterword, you write, “I want you to know that Take Two has taken me on a wild ride through the labyrinth that lies at the inner core of relationships in a way I have never experienced before.” What was the emotional experience of writing this story like for you? And what’s the biggest thing you learned in your research for this story?

For me, the emotional piece was imagining this couple getting sucked into such a vortex. I recently reread one of my scenes, and I was reeling. I was like, ‘Wow, maybe I should have put a disclaimer on the book. I don't think younger kids should read certain scenes in this book. They're intense!’ As a writer, you're right there, putting people through such harsh words and painful concepts. It's tough. But it’s also necessary because things have to stay real.

I know that the storyline is a bit extreme here, and that was intentional. My hope is that when a reader reads the story, even if it's not their personal experience, and even if this is way more exaggerated than anything they could imagine dealing with, maybe there's some way to look at a relationship or at a difficult person in your life and come at it with more wisdom and compassion. 

That’s another thing I learned in the process of writing Take Two: how to view difficult people in a new light. I'll be honest: I never really liked Bella from the get-go. I just found her to be shallow, whiny, and selfish. And I feel like shaking her. Like, ”Hello?! What are you doing? How could you do this?” While I was doing my research, I really had the opportunity to dig deeper, and it was eye-opening. I could see how  she really is struggling with a lot, and she doesn't have any tools to deal with it all. Like we see and like we say, A lot of hurt people end up hurting people. And this brings me to my whole purpose in writing, which is to give people tools. 

In our last discussion, you said, “I feel like I have that license to push the character against the wall, but how the character will inch away from the wall has to be pretty lifelike.” I know that Take Two was based on a true story, but it’s definitely ramped up on the drama. Do you worry that increasing the drama and chaos loses the relatability that drives the powerful themes home?

When I write, I'm always trying to give something to everyone. I want every reader to come away enriched and engaged, even if they’re not dealing with anything even remotely similar to my storyline. That said, Take Two is definitely dramatic. And I'm just gonna be honest here: I didn't expect the story to be this intense. When I went into Take Two, I had the characters, and I knew there’d be “stuff” happening, but I didn't realize how intense it was going to become. And once it got intense, I had to balance it and calibrate it properly. For example, I have Miri’s mother appearing throughout the book. She’s a relatable, wholesome person who’s just married off her first daughter. Later on, she becomes a grandmother for the first time, and she's navigating a complicated relationship with her daughter and son-in-law. That’s a piece a reader might be able to resonate with even if the rest of the rest of the storyline isn’t something they can relate to.

Miri also has a phenomenal growth trajectory in the book that’s very relatable. Everyone has gone through stuff where they've been insecure and trying to figure difficult things out, whether it's with their parents, their husband, their children, work situations, whatever it is. So I tried to put in pieces that would maintain relatability and then hoped and prayed that my readers would bear with me through this journey. 

One tough part about reading through Aryeh’s journey is seeing how his path to emotional health leaves him unraveling, and getting worse before getting better. Just when the story starts looking up, we see the real mess they’ll have to sort through. Is it always worth it?

There were times in the story that it was frustrating to watch, where everybody's doing great and you just want it to be happily ever after. But real life is not “happily ever after” under these circumstances simply because there’s always another layer and another level to uncover. You need to be digging deeper and hitting that rock bottom where you finally root it all out. That's where the healing happens.The whole process is important, and the only way out is through. But it can be a two-steps-forward, three-steps-backward experience, and I had to demonstrate that because that’s the reality. 

.Anyone who has been in therapy for a deep-rooted issue knows that fear of opening up the Pandora’s box and then not being able to close it up neatly again.  And that's why in any delicate emotional work, there has to be a very qualified professional involved. Because it's a gesher tzar meod, and you don't want to misstep. At the same time, the healing is so important and so beautiful that it’s worth it in the end.

You took an interesting approach to this story, unraveling the true reality of the characters after hiding it in layers of red herrings. Can you talk about how you approached building up the plot?

I let my readers believe that certain characters were victims, while others were aggressors, and then people were later unmasked in a completely different role. This is actually consistent with much of real life where there can be so much crazy-making that we don't know who’s the victim and who’s the aggressor. Who's abusing? Is anybody abusing? What is going on? It's so confusing and murky, and I wanted the reader to feel that shakiness tangibly, to experience how the rug was whipped out from under their feet. Where they’re saying, “Am I crazy? Is she crazy? Does Riva know what she's talking about? Didn't she specifically say in Chapter 24 that…?” So it was an exercise in what this actually could feel like for people in Aryeh and Miri’s situation. I think it gives us a lot of empathy for people going through this type of thing. 

I got some complaints in the beginning that the story was building up too slowly. But when I'm crafting a serial, I don't have the luxury of just plunging you into the suspense. I have to build it up because what I'm actually doing is building the character and plot in specific ways. In each chapter, I'm adding a little bit, giving some foreshadowing, letting you deepen your understanding of the characters, and then I can drop the bombshell.

I also like the idea of exploring how there are two sides to every story and both are equally guilty or innocent, depending on how you look at it.  Of all of my stories, Take Two gave me the most opportunity to portray the two sides. A lot of us, if not all, have another side. And exploring that is fascinating, taking us into the whole issue of don lkaf zchus versus setting boundaries, taking care of ourselves, and expectations in relationships. 

Portraying both sides forces us to question who the victim really is, and challenges a lot of our perceptions. We would like to think that a loving mother is also a healthy mother, that a good husband is also a good child. We want to think it all goes together. And it's jarring when we see that this woman has a lot of great traits, but is also completely toxic.

Such is life, right? Not everything ties up neatly in a bow! And then the question is, Does it really matter? Because most of us go through life trying to come to a cut-and-dry conclusion. We need to know, black or white: he's bad, he's good. She's at fault, she's not at fault. I was talking to a woman who was telling me that her mother's a narcissist, but that the mother has friends who adore her. So the daughter sees one side; the friends see another side; the husband sees another side;l and the mother of this woman likely sees yet another side. We all have all these sides, to some degree or another. 

There's something comforting about having people all figured out, to have that consistency and stability and right and wrong, that comes from putting people in boxes. But in Take Two, I wanted to give a moment’s pause. I wanted to show the reader: Wait a second! This is a person! This is a three-dimensional, multifaceted individual. This is a world! You try to quantify this person one way, but I see this side of this person, and you're going to see that side of that person. And then what will happen to all your wonderful little boxes? 

The last chapter of Take 2 feels quite “happily ever after”, a stark contrast to your approach throughout the rest of the book. Why did you choose to end the story on this ultra-positive note of change from Aryeh’s parents?

It wasn't exactly a happy-ever-after ending: they did imply that they're not sure where life would be taking them from that point on. I didn't want a fake ending, I didn't want to hurt or insult children who have been through this, who know what it's like. I didn't want it to be different from their reality. But I did want to offer some hope. 

What I liked about the ending is that the parents came together for Aryeh’s sake. They were able to step outside of their serious issues, recognize Aryeh’s pain, and apologize for it. I was also trying to show how important it is for parents to take responsibility when they make mistakes. Nobody's perfect, and mistakes happen on all different levels. They made this mess, and when you make a mess, you need to clean up. And I also like that the parents offered  a form of reparations to Aryeh and Miri, which is a direct way of making amends.

Aryeh credits Miri with getting the turnaround going. How accurate is that? How much do you feel Miri is a passive victim of her circumstances vs shaping her future? Is there a moment where this shifts? She starts the story as a weak girl with no backbone. And although she’s gone through so much and emerged intact, at the end she’s still questioning herself and blaming her neediness. Was there any change on her part?

Miri is a really interesting character. I put her in intentionally because often, we like to connect the dots and understand things in specific ways. So if we see a weak and needy person in our lives, they must have a traumatic past or a bad upbringing or they're the sandwich child. Miri comes from a beautiful, warm, nurturing family, with parents who invested everything in her. She's an oldest and could have been responsible, confident, and mature, but she's not. And I wanted to make the point that sometimes the apple does fall far from the tree. Sometimes parents are like, where did I go wrong? But maybe you didn't. Maybe you did a great job. And this is just the nature part and not the nurture part. 

But even somebody who starts out weak and timid can find her inner strength when pushed into certain circumstances. It definitely helps that she has a child because that Mama Bear instinct is super powerful. Seeing the writing on the wall for this child, especially when she makes the connection between her and Aryeh, and Aryeh and his mother, and this male child that she just had. Will this child be subjected to exactly what Aryeh was subjected to? Is she going to be just repeating the pattern? That forces her out of her comfort zone and she finds her voice. It's funny because as much as Aryeh is embroiled in a serious situation, he's really a nice guy, he does make Miri feel good. And just being married to him feels like a trophy for her, because l’maisa, she has a cool husband and she has a job. It gives her a certain measure of confidence. 

Unlike many female frum authors, who generally place their male characters in passive and generic roles, your male characters are unique and imperfect, with their own struggles and parts to play. I’m thinking of Ashi from Flashback, Tzvi from Diamond Dust, Yehuda in Six Degrees, and Aryeh in Take Two. Is this intentional? What do you think these well-rounded male characters add to your novels?

I like portraying real couples in my books, and I love the couple’s dialogue, especially happy couples. I think it's important and very healthy to see natural, good, healthy, dialogue. So I have to have the characters be multidimensional; you can't have a relationship with someone who's not built. And I like making my characters interesting and true to life. People are rarely just one thing.

And sometimes, with Ashi or Tzvi, it's what they've been through, their history and personality that drives the plot forward. Tzvi would never have dated Yalli without that failed marriage. Ashi would never have been the workaholic he was without that father. So their personalities are part of the plot line.

Speaking of Diamond Dust, I'm thinking about Henny’s husband, Yitzy. He's really funny. He has this sharp sense of humor that carries the story through. They're struggling with infertility, and at a certain point, he gets really vulnerable and chinks his own armor and says I’m having a hard time, I haven't gone to yeshiva in a week because I'm struggling. I think it's important that all genders and all ages be human, which means sometimes being vulnerable, having a personality, and having faults.

What have you been reading recently that you could recommend?

Over Pesach, we read Let My Nation Go by Rabbi Yosef Deutsch. I can't even imagine the research it took, he took every single medrash under the sun and compiled this book that reads like a novel. It's phenomenal. 

Also, I just pulled down my rusty, dusty copy of the collected short fiction of O. Henry. O. Henry was my inspiration growing up. I just read The Ransom of Red Chief, the story where they kidnapped a kid and the father offers that if they pay him $500, he will take back his kid. It was beyond, good stuff. He's a master.

In our last conversation, you mentioned that you were working on translating a Holocaust memoir and also a biography for teens. Can you give an update on those? And what else is coming up?

The Holocaust memoir is done, Boruch Hashem, it’s being published with Menucha soon. I am not a Holocaust person, but it's a must read. 

In the other book, I’m up to chapter 45. It's a biography of a really inspiring woman, geared for teens. It's so uplifting and riveting, and you get so much from it. I'm writing this story in the first person present continuous, so it's unfolding as you read it. It's hard to write, but it's cool and lends itself well to the story. It's very Now: you're in the story. It has this vibe of being alive, a lot of energy and emotion, and you're on this roller coaster with her. I think that that's appealing to teenagers. Also, I'm writing it like she's taking you in, ‘Come sit in my living room, I'll give you some cinnamon buns’. The protagonist is holding your hand, and you're developing this relationship with her throughout the book. I can't tell you when it will be out because I have to finish it first, but, iyH, it's coming out. I'm excited about that. 

And, of course, I’m super excited about my newest venture, www.skillnosh.com, digital courses geared for the frum consumer–on every topic (not just writing!). There’s always something exciting going on in my life! :-)